01:43 – From a town of 2000…
04:29 – The role of mentors
08:53 – The shy kid meeting strangers
12:10 – Easing the face-to-face qualms
14:04 – Strengthening the connection
16:49 – Keeping things going
19:44 – Why make the effort?
23:07 – The example of kids
23:10 – What upbringing’s got to do with it
30:43 – Are millionaires excessive?
32:55 – What would Jaime ask herself?
35:50 – Getting Andrew Warner
41:13 – Some parting advice
James: James Schramko here. Welcome back to SuperFastBusiness.com. This is Episode 659. Today we’ll be talking about networking for introverts. So I’ve brought along a friend of mine, Jaime Masters from eventualmillionaire.com. Welcome to the call.
Jaime: Thanks so much for having me on.
James: From the outside. Jaime, it would seem that you’re some kind of extrovert, because you’ve had so many millionaires on your podcast for interviews, which I think was the core premise of Eventual Millionaire. And you came from a beginning way back there in Maine, not knowing anybody. So how’s that even possible, even if you’re an extrovert? But if you’re introverted, that would make it seemingly impossible. And today’s episode is really to encourage a listener who might be feeling a little reserved or not know many people or the feeling like they’d like to do more podcasts, or videos, or interact with people even via email, but are holding back. So let’s see if we can find some interesting tips that could be useful for that process. And a good starting place might be Jaime, way back in Maine, not knowing anybody. Tell me about that.
From a town of 2000…
Jaime: I grew up in a town of 2000 people. Woohoo. Yeah, it’s kind of funny when you say introvert, I remember one of my mom’s friends actually just stayed at my house. And she was gushing about the difference between who I was growing up, because she’s known me since I was born. I was like, in the corner not wanting to talk to anybody. Like, I was voted most artistic in high school. I didn’t talk to people, I was the geek behind the computer screen, and that was it. And thank goodness, we have the internet. Because if we didn’t have the internet, I’m pretty sure I wouldn’t have a network of millionaires and craziness now, because I could stay behind the laptop instead of actually having to go out. As a side note, I turn absolutely bright red when I get embarrassed. Like, it looks like I have hives going up my face. So that’s also a fun thing to do when you talk to people. So yeah, I’ve come a long way.
James: Yeah, that is an interesting transition. So what happened? You’re sitting there geeking out on your computer, and then the internet took your interest. What would be the starting steps that you went through?
Jaime: Well, online business versus actual, what I started in is very different. So I started in computers. I had a degree in IT; I actually started working for an ISP when I was 16. That’s how geeky I was. And I used to program. And I was actually an engineer for a while, even before all of this stuff. So literally, I was behind a computer screen, didn’t have to talk to anyone. Everyone else is super geeky and introverted in that space, too. So I didn’t really have to do anything.
But when I started going online, it was different. I could still stay behind the computer, don’t get me wrong, that’s a wonderful, amazing thing. But I found a mentor that started to push me out of my comfort zone, way more than I expected. So literally, I would go to a networking event or something like that, and I would try and go into the corner. You know? And he’s like, you have to talk to six people. And I was like, I hate this. I hate this. I hate this. I don’t like this. So the internet didn’t always work back then, but thankfully, I found some tools and some tactics and getting over my fear for a short period of time in front of a computer was way easier than trying to do it in front of people.
James: There’s a few parallels there, actually. I was the shy kid at school, but I’m definitely not an IT geek. I wouldn’t know how to code things. Even though most people who don’t understand online marketing would look at me working with computers, and they think I’m in IT. It’s a really common label that gets applied to me from outsiders.
When I was younger, my mom recognized that I was quite shy, and she offered to go halves with me in an acting course, and sent me off to acting course. And I did these workshops every single week for years and years, got some kind of diploma in acting, and that completely shifted my gears. I had a mentor, Alan was his name. And I actually, later on, went back and helped him grow and rebuild his acting school, once I had business skills. So it was nice to repay the favor.
The role of mentors
How did you end up with a mentor? And would you say that’s an important step people might consider if they want to make changes?
Jaime: Definitely. And this was back to over 10 years ago. So to me, I knew about mentors and apprenticeship. My former husband is a professional juggler, which is odd. We have a weird household. But he always had a mentor when he was growing up. He had somebody that taught him the business, the vaudeville business, which back in the day was super cool, right? And I was like, why can’t I find somebody that would help me? And it was tough, because everybody online wanted to charge money. And I was like, I want to find somebody who is interested in helping me and not just, you know, getting my money from them.
So what’s funny is I went on a quest, not to find a mentor in my local town, but to just try and talk to more people and to see if I could find anybody. So I literally knew nothing in online business whatsoever. And he didn’t, either. I didn’t even know that much about coaching in general. And what I ended up doing was emailing randomly, because I had just moved to another small town in Maine called Turner, Maine. And I was new there. And I had emailed the guy that was the local business coach. And I was like, Hey, I’m new to the area. I had been coaching for a little bit beforehand. Anyway, I ended up emailing him and going, I just want to meet, it’d be awesome.
I was scared as all heck. I was 24, 25 at the time, something like that, over 10 years ago, and he replied, and we ended up having a meeting and we chatted for three or four hours, which was amazing. I didn’t think I’d ever have that much time. Anyway, I sent him a thank you card just saying, thank you so much for taking the time to talk to me. And he asked me if I wanted to be his apprentice. Now he said I was 25, and I looked like I was 12, also, which is also wonderful. But he was like, oh, I’ve been actually looking for somebody, I thought I was going to find somebody 45 (because he was 60-something at the time). But maybe we could work something out. So I end up working for him for 20 hours per week for free. Just as a sign-up, for six months.
James: That’s the old internship.
Jaime: Exactly, right? I mean, I learned it, people. I really learned it. But he taught me and pushed me out of my comfort zone so much more than I ever would on my own.
James: And you ended up kind of returning the favor for other locals down the track. I think one of the other main residents who took on your services was a famous podcaster.
Jaime: Yes, who shall not be named now. John Lee Dumas. We went to high school together. So he also grew up in a town of 2000 people.
James: Wow. And yeah, he’s got a big public reach now, with a big podcast. So there’s sort of a few examples from starting out in a small town, to getting an online footprint.
Jaime: Though I totally didn’t help him for free; I totally charged him so I was not that mentor.
James: It’s okay to charge, you know, I’d charge that. I charge people too, because you have to put a value on your time at a certain point. But that being said, there’s plenty of people I’ve helped along the way. There was this kid who reached out to me, and he somehow landed himself a job in a Toyota dealership in Canada. And he found out that I used to be a top-performing salesperson. And he was asking me some tips via a message. And I got on the phone to him, and I outpoured some of my best possible trainings over a phone call. And he went away. And then he came back later, and he outsold every single person in the dealership, and he blew them away; this young kid just destroyed them. And that’s one example of where I’ve helped someone when I didn’t have to.
But it’s also happened to me, you know. When I went to my very first online conference in Sydney, in Homebush, there was an opportunity there that I could meet Mike Filsaime, who was touring out there. He’d just released his Butterfly Marketing product. I still had a job, I was still working at Mercedes-Benz, and somehow I ended up going to a dinner with him and 20 other people. And I sat next to him and we chatted, and he gave me some great tips and gave me a lot of confidence that I was ready and able to take this all the way. And I remember going home feeling inspired and lifted that someone saw potential in me. And that was kind of my brush with fame.
“It’s good if you can get some encouragement from someone who’s further down the track.”
A few years later, I bumped into him again in Mexico, and we went on a trip together through Yanik Silver’s group. And it was great to sort of reminisce about the time I still had a job. It’s good if you can get some encouragement from someone who’s further down the track, because age equals wisdom, in many cases, and if you can tap into the source… I’ve always hung around older people as well, because they know heaps that you’re not going to get taught anywhere else. If you take time to listen to them and to learn the lessons, you can fast-track your progress.
The shy kid meeting strangers
So you got encouraged, you started meeting strangers at groups, like, six people was the KPI. I imagine you got this huge rush of adrenaline when you did something so wildly out of your comfort zone.
Jaime: Yes, and I turn bright red and get shaky, so it’s awesome. But yes, very, very, very true. And that’s the thing, it doesn’t take very long. I made a list when I was in Maine, of my friends, and you know how they say you’re going to be the average of the five people that you’re with, I made that list. I like literally wrote down their names, which shall not be named now. He was not on it. But what was really interesting is none of those people were where I wanted to be. And I knew I’d heard that quote like a million times before. And I knew that, but I didn’t know how to change it, especially being in Maine and growing up with not a ton of friends in general. How do you make friends as an adult? It’s weird, right?
So I ended up starting a mastermind group, just to try and have higher-quality friends. So we’ve talked about masterminds, me and you before, but literally the very, very initial point was so that I could have better, not better friends, but friends that actually had goals, that were trying to accomplish something. So I literally just cold emailed a whole bunch of people online to try and find that. But to me, even just sending that email at the time was scary. It was out of my comfort zone. Like, I don’t know, they’re going to reject me – like, that’s how small, I couldn’t even attempt to do. So I sent, I think, six or seven emails all at once, just like, okay, maybe someone will get back. Right? And it was just interesting back then how hard it was to even do the very small things. But now I’m really used to that; it’s definitely not a comfort zone issue of mine now, but it has been many, many years later.
James: I recall meeting you in Texas. You actually arrived at Ryan Levesque’s mastermind function, and said hello. So I think you go out of your way to meet people in person if they’re going to be in town or nearby. Is that right?
Jaime: Now, I definitely do. That’s one of the biggest things that I found that really connects people. So I’ve interviewed almost 500 millionaires on my podcast. And with that, making the connection stronger, I actually call them connection threads. So when I try and find things that me and you have that are similar, we link like, oh, we have kids, oh, you just had a baby, oh, this… right? Like, simple, simple things. Oh, I’m a geek, I have a sword wall with Zelda on it. If we talk about Marvel Comics, you’ll be my friend forever, right? So small, little things that you can’t really bring up online.
That’s one of the biggest things that I found on being stuck in Maine, was that everybody seemed to be friends. And I was like, random email person, or Skype? Or, you know what I mean? And it’s really hard to have those side bonding conversations, where you’re actually friends, where you have inside jokes, or whatever it is, without getting out of the state for me, right?
“When you know somebody, you’ve seen them offline, it makes a huge difference.”
So I started going to conferences and really trying to meet people. Even after all the interviews that I do, I ask every single one of them, like, oh, you’re going to be in Austin, are you going to any conferences? Because I know that that connection that I can build, even if it’s just one-on-one with them, even for five minutes, when I know somebody, you’ve seen them offline, it makes a huge difference.
James: Yeah, I’ve seen a lot of people offline, for someone living in Australia. I’ve been traveling to the United States for 11 years. And UK as well, and Asia. And when you do get to meet people in other countries, it definitely strengthens the bond. We’ve a constant stream of people passing through Manly who try and catch up for coffee. Huge, huge difference going from that online to face-to-face.
Easing the face-to-face qualms
When you do meet them face-to-face, do you have any kind of tips or protocols that you’ve found to make things a little more comfortable?
Jaime: Yes, actually. So locally here, there’s a meetup that happens every single month called the Internet Marketing Party, run by my very good friend, David Gonzales. I think they do have the DigitalMarketer one in San Diego, too. But they have it every month. And what I love, because it’s a time thing also, right, I have people that want to hang out, I invite everybody there. So David’s happy – it’s 20 bucks a ticket. No. But the good thing is that I can get a group together and I can actually introduce other people. So if I have no idea what to talk about, I can bring someone else in the conversation. Like, I have so many weird little tactics like that, just in case. So everybody meets me, not always, but usually meets me up at the front, and it’s at a big bar. And I know a bunch of people there already. So it’s easy for me to meet with them, and then potentially even introduce them to someone else that could be really, really helpful for them. And that was a huge value-add, and I didn’t even have to do all that much. Does that make sense?
“Leveraging on top of an existing group is a nice way to collect and store relationships.”
James: It makes a lot of sense. I do exactly the same thing with people passing through Sydney, or locals who want to catch up. I usually ask them if they’d like to come to our SuperFastBusiness local meetup, because I’m going to go to that anyway. And there’s a dozen other people there who are just like them, aliens to the rest of the world. These online marketing businesses, you can’t have those conversations with normal people; they just look at you funny. And it’s nice to get to realize there are other people out there who also sit at home in their tracksuit pants, and point domains here and there, and understand sales copy and offers and those sort of things. So it’s a great idea. So leveraging on top of an existing group, that’s going to happen anyway, is a nice way to collect and store all those relationships.
Strengthening the connection
After you’ve met people, is there any kind of follow-up or process you go through that helps you strengthen the first contact?
Jaime: Definitely, if that’s what I want to have happen. So sometimes you meet a person that you’re like, Oh, that’s great, awesome. Well, we’ll reach out, right? So we have lines, and if it is somebody that either could be a prospect or something like that, but in general, I try and make everybody my friend first, right? I care about connection with humans, whether they’re going to be a prospect or whether they’re not.
But I sort of have a line of, if this is somebody that I think could really be a good friend of mine in general, I look for their cell phone number. So I’m like, “Hey, give me your cell phone number. I’ll text you.” Because friends text each other, right? I got introduced to somebody the other day, she’s like, “What is your email address?” I was like, Oh, you don’t want my cell phone? Okay, good to know. Right? Lines, boundaries. But if they’re real humans that you want to be friends with long-term, a cell phone is the absolute best way to do that, instead of email follow-up or anything like that. Even when I go to conferences, I don’t carry around business cards. I either ask for their business card specifically, or I go, “Here, put in your cell phone. Now we’re friends.” And people love that. Like, the more I can establish that I like them and we’re friends, the happier they are, right?
You know, you’ve probably heard the thing where you ask them questions, so that way they talk about themselves, and they feel like it was a valuable conversation, even if they talked about themselves, because they felt valued. And I do that a lot. I’m an interviewer, I get to ask questions, and a coach, I’m used to asking questions. So I got really, really good at asking questions, especially in awkward situations. I can just come up with any question and keep putting the focus on them, which is a wonderful thing.
That being said, knowing what that next step is and going, “Ooh, here, can I have your cell phone number? We’re friends,” that even builds the bond even more, because then they’re like, Oh, okay, we’re actually friends. That’s awesome. Now again, it’s way easier as a female in some of these situations, even though I turn bright red, because asking for somebody’s cell phone number can be misconstrued, I’ve heard, as a guy, a little bit different. But that’s usually my go-to MO.
James: Right. A similar one might be adding them as a Facebook friend as well. Because a lot of the people in our circles are kind of maxed out. They might have to make room for you.
Jaime: I do though, that’s the problem. So, I don’t do that anymore. So Facebook, I got a warning the other day that I have too many friend requests now, too. I don’t know if they do it over a thousand or something like that. But I used to do that. I don’t do that anymore, because I can’t. So that’s where that line, I have to do another friend cleanup pretty soon, but I love all the people on my Facebook friends. And so that’s where that line is, right? Do I want to be friends, do I just want to be Facebook friends? I’ll have to delete people to be Facebook friends, but you know, there’s different levels of that too. Right? We’ll just message on Facebook Messenger. That’s not total friends.
James: So, Dunbar’s number is 150. That’s how many people normal people can have a relationship with as friends. People in our industry far exceed that number in terms of what we’re trying to remain in touch with.
Keeping things going
What other techniques have you got for sustaining relationships so it doesn’t just fall away?
Jaime: While I’m waiting in line, whether it be at Starbucks or wherever, I randomly text people, and usually something like, Thinking about you, or if there is an article… I know a lot of people are like, oh, well, find an article that you’ve been doing. I don’t remember to do that. I really don’t. So it’s more or less going, Hey, I was just thinking about you, or This caught my eye. Anytime I actually am thinking of them, if I’m out and about, I’ll send them a text and say I’m thinking about them, like, This just came up, Oh, I just saw this. And that just starts a conversation again. And it could be a quick text conversation.
I know the other day, we messed up and sent a wrong link for this one millionaire interview that I had. And I hadn’t talked to him in probably two years. And I just sent him a quick little note. I’m so sorry, we messed up. We sent the wrong link. I apologize. He’s like, Let’s hop on a call. We hop on a call for 20 minutes, we catch up. He’s coming back on the show. I haven’t heard he started the new jujitsu. I do jujitsu. Like, it was super cool. It felt like there was no time that had passed, and I haven’t talked to him in two years.
“Text is more of an intimate friend kind of thing.”
So doing those little things really, really adds up. Like I said, they’re little connection pieces. And again, you can’t handle all of them. But thankfully, with social media nowadays, I feel caught up on some people, right? My Instagram was only my friends for a while, so I could only see my friends and be updated on just them and comment on some of that stuff or message them. I personally think text is more of an intimate friend kind of thing. I don’t comment too, too much on Instagram, for people. I’m not on Instagram all that much. But I do think, if I see something on Instagram, I can go and text them and go, I just saw that, that was amazing. Killer. Right? And that way we’re starting a conversation that’s a personal, private conversation instead of my Instagram messages.
James: And do you use that for international friends as well?
Jaime: WhatsApp. Typically, WhatsApp.
James: Yep, gotcha. So that’s the messaging equivalent to text.
Jaime: Yeah. I like the voice side of things, too. I just sent a message to somebody after I met them at a conference. Well, too, I met them at Hal Elrod’s house when I saw him at a conference and I sent a little voice message. And he sent me a video back. And I was like, I need to be doing more videos back, because I got to actually see his face and his face was lit up. It was a real connection comparatively to my voice text, which I thought was pretty good. But I’m going to level mine up, too.
James: Yeah, I send quite a few videos. I get videos from Ezra, often he’s not wearing any shirt, he might be in bed and wishing me Happy birthday or whatever. But it is nice to get a video. It’s super easy to do. If you have a phone, you can make videos and send it, whether it’s via WhatsApp or messenger or whatever application. I send a lot of videos just through the regular course of business too, using my Bonjoro app. I think, why not take advantage of all those acting classes, right?
Jaime: Well, that’s just funny that you mentioned that, though, too. I did a lot of improv beforehand, and just started taking improv classes again. Like, if you suck at this, (I did Toastmasters also) please learn that you can get better. It’s not like you have to stay holed up behind your computer. It’s actually fun connecting with people, once you actually know what the heck you’re doing.
Why make the effort?
James: I think some introverts would say that they get that, and they could do it, but why? Like, what’s the benefit of being outgoing?
Jaime: Well, to me, it’s not a switch of being outgoing or not being outgoing, it’s actually making better connections with humans, right? So don’t get me wrong. You can definitely sit in front of a laptop and connect and message and do all that stuff, or even do videos. But for me, there was nothing like the world that is ours. I mean, you live in this world too, James, with the entrepreneurs online. Everybody seems to know everybody else. And if you aren’t meeting everybody, there is just a lesser of a connection that you can have if you’re not in person. You know, there’s only so much. Even dating online far away, they usually have to come together at some point, right?
So just in general as a human, connection is something that we should probably get a little bit better at. That being said, I’m still an introvert in that I have to go crawl in a corner afterwards and rest for a while. I can do it, and it’s fun. But I can only take so much, and I’m a hermit most of the other times. So I’m definitely not saying that this is my all the time. I did that for about a year, I went to tons of conferences, and I started getting burnt-out and hating it. So it just depends on what season of your business you are right now. But I highly recommend just doing it a little bit more and getting outside of your comfort zone. Because a lot of it is just like speaking on stage; a lot of it’s your own inner crap, that’s telling you how bad you suck at it. And if we can work through some of the mind stuff that we go through on meeting people, or the stuff that we aren’t good at, as we’ve self-described ourselves as an introvert, like, I literally could not talk to anyone, so you can come pretty far, just so you know.
James: I have met some people who are so shy, they get scared to order take away food from a stranger at an airport counter. I think it’s good to have some immunization against that shyness, to be able to move freely about the world and interact with people, whether it’s a car rental desk, an airport official, an event facilitator, whether it’s speaking in front of the stage, and not needing to go to run to the bathroom, and all of those things that often go with that fear. It’s just, I guess it’s empowering to be able to just cruise around life and feel quite comfortable that whatever happens, you can deal with that situation. Yeah.
Jaime: that’s exactly my point. So your comfort zone grows, it doesn’t stay static. So if you keep pushing it, it will keep growing, right? If you do a hundred speaking gigs, your hundredth one’s going to be a million times better than your first one. And yeah, you might still get a little nervous, but you’ve done it so many times, your comfort zone has grown. And that’s what I always look for as a human – I’m trying to evolve and get better. And it’s actually a trait that I’ve seen in almost all the 500 millionaires – maybe not almost all, but a lot of them – where they have this voracious need to keep learning and changing. And so I just sort of push that into this.
I suck at other things now, I’m sure, and I’m still trying to get better and better and better at those. And the comfort zone and knowing what you’re not good at so that you can suck it up, Buttercup, and do some of the stuff that’s harder, I never used to think this way. That’s living, right? That’s the feeling, like you were saying, that empowerment feeling that really makes a big difference in the long run. And like, now that I’ve had kids, I’m like, I want them to be able to do stuff like that, too. Like, they’re way more free and out of their comfort zone than I am. So I can learn from them also. But it does, it’s all your own self-imposed crap that’s keeping you in your comfort zone. Does that make sense?
The example of kids
James: It does make sense, especially with kids. They’re kids until they grow up into adults and have all the kid beaten out of them. And then they turn silly, you know?
James: They have way less concern about being themselves in public, generally, and it’s good if you can foster that, encourage it. I know all of my kids, and I’ve got plenty of them now.
James: They’re not constrained by some of the things others are. My oldest son is a performer in a rock band. So you know, he’s out there, lead guitarist, doing some vocals as well in front of audiences and loves it. He grew up around a more confident parent than average. And I think so a lot of the work that I did was leveraged and compounded into my children. And it’s a good thing. You’re a role model as a parent. So if you can be that good role model, then that gives them a better chance of operating in society.
It’s interesting, you say about the hundredth presentation being better than the early ones. There’s this strange scenario that can happen where you just don’t get any emotional reaction to being in that environment that you’ve been in so many times; you can actually be dulled to it. So something I had to work on when I present is I’ve got to actually try and lift my tonality and enthusiasm sometimes. Otherwise, I’m in danger of flatlining, because I’m just so relaxed, especially at my own event. I don’t get that butterflies or the nervous feeling at all. So I don’t have the adrenaline to ride and to power through and do a heightened performance. So I have to make sure that I remember to lift it up a bit.
Jaime: Everyone’s like, first world problems, James, come on. No, but I get it.
James: You know, I hear people, I don’t know how many people go through that one. But I know I’m different in a few ways to others. It’s just so many years of face-to-face interactions on a showroom floor, like every single day, for over a decade, talking to strangers all day, every day. You know, it dulls out. When I was debt collecting, I used to phone up to 180 people a day. So it’s a lot of face time.
Jaime: Yeah. Well, and that’s the thing. So you got pushed out of your comfort zone, right? So for me, my mentor was one of those people that would push me to do cold call. I did 50 cold calls a day, and I was like, shaking and nervous.
What upbringing’s got to do with it
But it is the upbringing, like you were saying. My mom’s friend that actually stayed with us, I was so confused. She’s very outgoing. They’re traveling across the country, and she just retired. And I compared it to my mom. And I remember talking to my mom on the phone, and I went, “Brenda’s like, traveling across the country.” Like, my parents don’t leave Maine. And I love my parents dearly, but they don’t leave Maine. And my mom freaked out like, “Oh my gosh, she drove by herself to a different state.” And I was like, wow, Mom.
This is the world I grew up – My mom was scared to drive to another state alone. So the fears that our parents have or had really impact us big time. And so in some of the millionaire interviews that I’ve done, what I’ve noticed, too, is that the kids that are – kids, I say kids – the millionaires that are young, like 20-something, they typically had parents that were entrepreneurs or something like that, where they started entrepreneurship really, really young. So I feel like they got out of their comfort zone so much sooner, or their comfort zone was just bigger because their parents actually knew that driving outside of your state is not bad.
James: Well, it’s like Ezra, who grew up in a hippie commune. He just didn’t have normal society filters put on him. He was just unleashed in his 20s. I think he still is, or he’s probably only barely in his 30s. He’s young and successful. Does your mom hold a passport?
Jaime: No, neither does my dad.
James: Apparently a lot of citizens don’t. I think that was responsible for the demise of the American car industry. Seventy-five percent of the board of directors of the biggest car companies in Detroit did not hold a passport, never traveled overseas. As far as I’m concerned, if you’re not traveling overseas, you’re living in a much smaller version of the world than exists and you’re not exposing yourself to all the education that can come with that. I imagine your mom would be petrified of traveling to a foreign country. They don’t speak English.
Jaime: I have taken her once, a long time ago, her passport has expired since, by the way, because she did not want to go back. She gave me anxiety, just going anywhere.
I think that’s the thing that’s so interesting, is that it makes it more about what you’re willing to deal with and test than what you’ve been built. Because I didn’t travel. First time I went out of the country, I was on my honeymoon. I actually got married at 21. I got married very young. But I was like, this is insane – like, this is on TV.
Thankfully, I feel like, now, with the internet, it literally is such a life changer for so many people, especially in rural areas. And we don’t have that as much anymore. You can go online and find out that there are people as digital nomads. Like our friend, Natalie Sisson, Suitcase Entrepreneur. She was mind-blowing to me when I first met her. I was like, You just travel around by yourself. Huh. Now I’ve come a long way, but still. Like, my son’s 12. What they’re exposed to and what is quote, unquote scary to them is so much more than what I was exposed to using IRC when I was, you know, 14.
James: Yeah. I took my youngest at the time to Traffic & Conversion last time I went, and we stopped by Hawaii on the way. He comes to the Maldives with me most years. Like, they get around. He’s been to Europe, we drove 6000 kilometers across Europe. He’s been to the United States. And just for that sort of global window, it’s such a great opportunity.
I’m fortunate, actually. When I was little, my parents used to take us to Fiji. And we also went to America for a trip when I was 12. That was the last time I went before I was an adult. I was 12 years old. And I remember walking around New York with my mom, holding a pocket knife in my pocket. I was so scared of the muggers and the crime, because, you know, all I knew about New York was that it was violent and dangerous and I could probably die.
And I was also living with my uncle in Washington DC, in a neighborhood where I think it was probably quite a poor area. And I was hanging out with all the local kids and helping. I was doing life skills with them, like they had a punctured tire and they didn’t know how to fix it, on their bicycle. So I took the wheel off, popped the tire off the rim, got the tube, blew it up, put it in a sink of water, waited till the bubbles came out, cut a little snippet off a kitchen glove, glued it onto the tire, let it dry, put it back in, pumped it up, and away they went. They just looked at me in awe – they couldn’t believe that a 12-year-old kid could repair a bicycle. They just had no skills.
In fact, I remember in that house, there was about 18 of them living in this terrace house, and the bed never had an empty moment. Like, there were three shifts sleeping in that bed – the day shift, the afternoon shift, the night shift, and they were off to work. It was so eye-opening at that age; I got a lot of insight into how other people live. So I’m very grateful for having that upbringing where I got to see a big window of the world. Because I think we can have our blinkers on, and the world could be shocking to us if we go too long till we find out.
Jaime: To me, that’s one of the reasons why I started interviewing millionaires, is I kept putting them on a pedestal, right? Well, they must have something better, do something, you know what I mean? And it’s funny – after the first 30 or so, I was like, they have spelling mistakes, they had horrible upbringings. I looked for patterns because I was a programmer. And there was no crazy, nutso pattern. It wasn’t like, Oh, they all had parents that were like this. I was really trying to find something like that. But I think it’s the tenacity of just, I say, continuous forward motion, no matter what. Like, that is what they are relentless at, no matter what, and just figuring out and trying to get better and better and evolve. And if you have that attitude, there’s really nothing that can stop you nowadays, which is thankful.
Are millionaires excessive?
James: The other thing you notice when you do speak to a lot of millionaires, they all have pain; they’ve all got something going on in the background. They’re all human; they put their pants on one leg at a time. They’re not from some other planet. They’re quite sensitive and vulnerable, as well. And quite often, they lean towards excess, they go too far in areas, and it causes them shortfalls in others – a lot of the sort of things that I’ve tried to address in my book to give people another viewpoint on that. Do you notice a lot of them are excessive?
Jaime: You mean by skill set or by material?
James: Just in general. I mean, the amount of millionaires I’ve spoken to who pushed it too far and had to correct, very common they end up in a hospital ward, have a health blowout. Most definitely, like a gazillion of them have relationship blowouts.
James: Some of them turn into meditators and chill out. So I think what I’m saying is, being a millionaire doesn’t mean they’re a perfect human – it just means they’ve excelled at making money.
Jaime: Exactly. Whenever I interview anyone now, and thankfully, it’s better and better and better. It’s more about the holistic side. So the point of Eventual Millionaire was life first, then money; it was actually not about the money. When I was little, I was about eight, I told my mom, I want to be a millionaire. And she goes, marry a rich man. And I was like, Mom, I’m going to do it myself. But then I made six figures at 22 and realized that that wasn’t necessarily the path I wanted to do either, because I hated my life and my job. So it’s life first, then money.
And what’s so interesting is when I’m interviewing people, I ask about their life stuff. And I’m friends with lots of them, clients; I know the inner workings of a lot of them also. And we are all human, so we all have problems. Like, there is no way that you are on this earth without having a problem. But what’s interesting is, like you said, their skill set on making money could be really, really good. Their skill set in other areas, potentially not. Or their focus on other areas – that was another big aha from seeing everybody – is that they got really good at focus. But like you’re saying, they maybe got too good at focus, focus on the money or the success or the business or whatever too much, that the other stuff was lacking.
James: Yes. And look, some people are lacking everything. They’re lacking the money and the perfect lifestyle. So I mean, it’s definitely great to see people go well in that area.
What would Jaime ask herself?
So back onto the topic of networking. You’re a great podcast interviewer, Jaime. If you were chatting to yourself, what sort of questions would you ask, knowing what sort of answers you might be able to glean?
Jaime: Ooh. That’s a great question. I’ve never asked myself a question before. So I have a quick little story about helping other people and connecting with them, and I’ll bring that one up. So with Andrew Warner back in the day, I wanted him to come on my show, but because the show was called Eventual Millionaire, he didn’t want to. Like, he was like, nope, your show is about money. Seth Godin said that, too. I also got Seth Godin on the show. But usually, money is actually a turnoff for people. They don’t want to be known as one; there’s all sorts of caveats that go behind the scenes on some of that stuff. So he had just given me a flat out No, and this is quite a few years ago. And so, I don’t take no for an answer. And so if I could tell anybody to do anything, don’t take no. This is something I learned horribly bad in sales, because I sucked so horribly bad at it. But you, I’m sure, James, are really good at this also. When you don’t take no and you just follow up and you try and find a different way to solve the problem and really be creative about it, you can find much better ways.
James: Well, my first protocol there is to decide, is this a condition or an objection? Because, look, if you’re trying to sell shoes to someone who’s an amputee, that’s more of a condition. I’m sure it could be done, like The Wolf of Wall Street would still argue, you could definitely sell him a pair of shoes, and you should. Right? But I don’t think so. So there’s an ethical dilemma there. Big shout out to the Wolf, by the way. So if it’s a condition, I’m not going to push the point. But if it’s just a lack of understanding, I’ll definitely take responsibility for finding a better pathway or creating another approach where I can set the environment in a better way to have someone see that this makes sense, that they would be better off. And if I’m passionate that someone would be better off, then I will look for another way around for sure.
Again, with my oldest kid, when he was little, I made life really hard for my parents, because I taught my kid that when he asked for another story, I would say no to him, like, eight or nine times, and then say yes. So I taught him to just keep finding different angles and I’d teach him the basic stuff, like, sure, you want a story. But why would I want to read you a story? Make it good for me to want to read you a story, and you might get your story. So we worked really hard on this. This kid is the most persuasive human on the planet; he gets anything he wants, because he’s very creative, and extremely persistent.
Jaime: I’m just laughing because my children did the same thing to me the other day, they want to sleep outside.
James: Children of entrepreneurs – you got no chance.
Jaime: They’re in an entrepreneur kids school. And this week, they were learning how to debate. And so they each took turns, and then I gave objections, and they won. Like, they literally got everything that I could say, and they totally beat me. And that’s the thinking, though, that I think is really important, that we don’t highlight enough, because it’s the way of, not what you’re told in sales, where you’re like, Oh, well, just handle objections and just do what you’re supposed to do, but finding other ways around.
Getting Andrew Warner
So for Andrew Warner, it sort of popped up this way. I didn’t even have him totally on my radar. Once they say no, I was like, all right, fine. I get a little testy when they say no. I come back later. So I ended up getting a Social Media Marketing World guest post. I met Michael Stelzner because a friend of a friend introduced us; I ended up getting a blog post. So I sent a message to Andrew Warner on Twitter – because we weren’t even friends, like no, zero connection whatsoever. And I had retweeted him and stuff like that. I’m sure he had no idea who I was. So I sent him a tweet. I couldn’t DM him, because he wasn’t following me. And I said, Hey, I am writing a post for a blog with 300,000 people ( I think I had 300,000 at the time), and I want to feature you. Would you be interested?
Literally seven minutes later, he DMs me back and said, here’s my cell phone number. I’m sure he doesn’t do this anymore now that I tell the story, right? I hop on a call with him and we had a bunch of mutual friends. So I hopped on a call and I was like, Oh yeah, you know this person. I was just hanging out with them. And then I was like, Well, why didn’t you want to come on the podcast? And he was like, Oh, alright, for you. I’ve met you. Okay, cool. I’ll come on the podcast.
So to me, it wasn’t even about trying to find the right angle or anything like that. I presented an opportunity that would work really well for him. And I’ve done it for many, many other people, mentioning on a blog, especially when your blog is not as big as theirs is, is huge. And you can build clout that way. Right? So to me, finding the other ways around (I hate the word “skin the cat”), but lots of ways to be able to do the same thing.
James: I have a problem with that word, too. I’m usually shocked that someone knows how to skin a cat.
Jaime: Right? I’m from Maine, so I don’t know.
James: But it’s even more shocking if they know, like, you know, three or four ways to skin a cat – that’s extra disturbing.
Jaime: Okay, that’s all the people I grew up with. Don’t even, James. I came home, and my friend who has hiked the Appalachian Trail, I came home, I’m like, What is that smell? Oh, he was skinning a chipmunk in my sink. Okay, just so you know, this is the world I grew up in. My parents have a wood stove. Don’t judge.
James: So no wonder you want to travel. That’s good.
Jaime: Don’t judge. Anybody can do it.
James: If you want to listen to one of the shortest episodes I’ve ever done on SuperFastBusiness, it was Episode 19, with Andrew Warner from Mixergy. It lasts in my memory because he just abruptly said, “I have to go,” and then hung up. He just bailed on me. He wasn’t the easiest guest that I’ve ever had, that’s for sure.
Jaime: I am, right, James? Nice segue. Totally it’s me.
James: Oh, you’re, in contrast, all these networking skills have polished you. I mean, look, we get to chat fairly frequently, so I feel like I’ve gotten to know you much better over the last half a year or so. And I like that you have a good laugh and you’re always evolving and developing yourself and your business. And I see the impact that you’re having with the people who you’re working with. And it’s fortunate that we’ve got to go into a deeper extension of the regular sort of business relationship.
“At the core, people, whether they are conscious of this or not, are relatively selfish.”
That was a good story, by the way, about finding a different way; you found a way forward that was going to help him be significantly better off, which is a really good foundation for a relationship? Because I think, at the core, people, whether they are conscious of this or not, are relatively selfish. So if you can find things that they’re interested in, that’s straight out of the old Dale Carnegie book, isn’t it? Win Friends and Influence People, people love to talk about themselves?
So it’s a nice way to get that relationship started. But certainly if you can continue to provide value for someone, you’re likely to be friends for a long time.
Jaime: And that’s the goal. I love what you’ve said to me before in a coaching session where you’re like, I’m in it for the long haul. I’m paraphrasing, of course. But that’s what I find is really, really important too. There’s definitely internet marketers that are here with a splash and go away. And when you when you come at it at that direction, to me, it’s not the right way to go. Building up lasting relationships is what I’m in this for, and I know it’s been a testament to everything that you’ve done also.
James: Yeah, it’s a long game. It’s a long game. This, you know, this is 10 years now, this podcast. Still no good at it, but I reckon I’ll get there, maybe by Episode 1000, we’ll be warmed up.
I mean, aren’t we lucky to have this rich learning experience of being able to speak to a whole bunch of people, get some different insights into the world? A lot of the things I learn are from my own guests and audience and customers. Like, to let them teach us is such a privilege.
And I think you’re a real role model for someone who might be in a small town, or shy, or I reckon, maybe they’re just sitting on a desire to want to move about the world with a little more confidence or to get an extra guest or two on their show, or to front up to a live event. And there’s lots of great opportunities to go to live events these days, and to be able to sit next to someone and have a conversation. Maybe we’re going to help someone stretch into that next zone, which expands with them. And you know, the event that I ran just a week or so ago in Sydney, SuperFastBusiness Live, I encouraged people in each session to move to a different table, and we had round tables so they could interact. And the breaks were long. And I think there was around 150 people at the event, and I’m pretty sure most people met a whole bunch of new contacts who will sort of strengthen that. And I think that’s what made the event the best event so far, because it was networking-focused. And so I’m all for connection. And as you said, I’m in it for the long haul – lifetime customer philosophy for me.
Some parting advice
So, Jaime, in summary, what’s your advice for someone if they’re sitting there poised ready to send out an email or a contact request or go to a live event, and they haven’t done it before, but they want to now? What would you advise them?
“Go do the thing that scares you. Hit the trigger. It’s never as bad as our brain.”
Jaime: Well, it’s funny, I ask the same last question on my podcast for every single time, and it’s, What’s one action listeners can take this week to help move them forward towards their goal of a million? And almost 500, they say very similar things. It’s a slice of just do it. Like, go do the thing that scares you. Hit the trigger. It’s never as bad as our brain. Unfortunately, sometimes our brain is not nice when it thinks a lion’s going to come eat us, which is not even close to true, right? That it’s just a hesitation that’s going to stop you from doing that. So just do it, it’s going to mess up, it’s not going to be perfect, you’re not going to be perfect at absolutely everything you do. And if we can keep moving forward, knowing that you’re going to mess up, then you keep moving forward anyway, and you really make those corrections on your path instead of sitting there. One of my favorite quotes is, “If you’re just sitting there, you’re going to get run over,” right? You’ve got to move, you’ve got to be able to move, you’ve got to actually keep moving forward.
James: You can’t steer a parked car.
Jaime: Exactly, right? And so to me, getting out of Maine and moving, even though it seemed so big at the time, sending that email, it seemed so big at the time. But think of it 10 years from now, right? Think of the new person that you will be, so it’ll be a lot easier. One of the little quick things that I have my clients do is, imagine whoever your favorite millionaire interview is that I’ve done. I have them imagine that person. I go, what would they do if you had their brain? They’d be able to send that email in a second. It’s not a big deal. But for you, you’re holding yourself back because of all that head junk. So just know you’re going to mess up anyway. Keep moving forward, that’s all that matters.
James: Jaime, you’ve been a powerhouse of knowledge and information, and I appreciate everything you’ve shared with us today on the topic of networking. We’ve covered some ground and it’s been a great episode. You can check out Jaime Masters at eventualmillionaire.com. Thanks so much, Jaime.
Jaime: Thank you so much for having me, James.
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